ワグネルトップ、ブリゴジン「停戦すべきだ。敗北の可能性もある。ウクライナは昔はロシアだったが今は違う国だ」 [674578486]
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ロシアによるウクライナ侵略で、露軍側で参戦している露民間軍事会社「ワグネル」トップのプリゴジン氏は１４日、「プーチン政権は軍事作戦の終了を宣言すべき時だ」とする声明を交流サイト（ＳＮＳ）上で発表した。同氏はまた、露軍は「東部ドネツク州全域の制圧」とする主目標を達成できそうもない上、ウクライナ軍の反攻で敗北する可能性があるとも警告した。
https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/c1ccfe3274d562bb265654d9513e4c9c1b990c94
ワグネルの部隊は最激戦地の東部ドネツク州バフムトを巡る攻防で
露軍側の主力を担当。プリゴジン氏は、露軍側の戦力低下を認識し、
作戦の終結を求めた可能性がある。ただ、プーチン政権は
「軍事作戦は目標達成まで続ける」としており、現時点で停戦に動く可能性は低いとみられる。
https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/c1ccfe3274d562bb265654d9513e4c9c1b990c94
プリゴジン氏は声明で、ロシアはウクライナ領の重要地域を占領し、
露本土と実効支配するクリミア半島を結ぶ陸路も確保するなど十分な「戦果」を達成したと指摘。
侵攻開始から１年に当たる今年２月２４日時点の前線を停戦ラインとすべきだと主張した。
停戦しない場合、露軍はウクライナ軍の反攻で占領地域を奪還され、
威信も失う恐れがあると指摘。「ウクライナはかつてロシアの一部だったかもしれないが、今は国民国家だ」とも述べ、
「ウクライナはロシアの一部だ」とするプーチン露大統領の持論に暗に異を唱えた。
https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/c1ccfe3274d562bb265654d9513e4c9c1b990c94
ただしツイッター上では切り抜きだとも指摘されている
なお産経ではなく海外メディアがさきにこの記事を書いてる模様（産経は後追い） ワグネルはバフムトに全てを費やしたから
落としたところで終わりにしたいんだろうな バフムト陥落はプリゴジンの手柄だからな
ここで終わればプリゴジンが英雄になる プーアノンさん、プリゴジンのウク信認定来ちゃうかな？ 今止めたらサウジがアメリカのサンドバッグになるだけやぞｗｗｗ 正々堂々と戦うのみ：交渉はしない ← コレが本物の表題
ワグネルトップ「停戦すべき時が来た」 ロシア軍の敗北にも言及 ← コレ 地方紙産経壺新聞 >>991
引きこもりのこどおじの発想 笑
↓
993 ウィズコロナの名無しさん[sage] 2023/04/15(土) 18:53:48.10 ID:Fjjf+Q7t0
>> 9 8 7
回線コロコロバレバレ
マヌケな露助工作員さんwww 「日本のテレビ局から、スーパーマーケットで空っぽの棚を撮って欲しいといわれました。でも空っぽの棚なんてないので「ありません」と言ったら、そういう画が欲しいので、商品をよけてでも撮って下さいと言われたんです。私は断りました」
実際のスーパーの棚には商品がずらりと並ぶ。経済制裁は効いているのか？ 先入観にとらわれず、ロシアの現実を直視する必要がある。
ウク信は阿呆過ぎて 笑 昨秋、ウクライナ原発奪還作戦 600人で渡河、ロシア軍が撃退し失敗 英紙
4/9(日) 20:37配信
時事通信
昨秋、ウクライナ原発奪還作戦 600人で渡河、ロシア軍が撃退し失敗 英紙
ザポロジエ原発のロシア軍車両＝３月２９日、ウクライナ南部エネルホダル（ＡＦＰ時事）
ロシア軍が占領するウクライナ南部ザポロジエ原発で昨年10月、特殊部隊による奪還作戦が試みられたものの、失敗に終わった。 >>27
タイムズによると、作戦があったのは10月19日未明。約600人が重機関銃やグレネードランチャー、対戦車兵器を満載したボート30隻に分乗し、原発のあるドニエプル川南岸に上陸しようとした。
原発という事情に鑑み、敵が砲撃で応じないよう「歩兵のみ」の計画となった。ただ、ロシア側の陣地に向け、米国製の高機動ロケット砲システム（HIMARS）は使用されたとタイムズは報じている。
しかし、ロシア軍は地雷敷設を含めて強力な防御を構築。特殊部隊がボートで渡河中、戦車や大砲などで激しい攻撃を加えてきた。結局、南岸まで上陸できた部隊は一部にとどまり、約3時間交戦した後、撤退を余儀なくされたという。
ロシア国防省は発生当日、ウクライナ軍の90人以上を殺害し、ボート14隻に損害を与えたと発表していた。 これでかい発言だろ
ワグネルのトップって実質ロシア軍のトップみたいなもんだろ >>30
まあ嘘報道だろうけどな
こんなこと言うわけないからな >>35
40万人動員とかね。
この前徴兵した兵隊はどうしたんだろ イゴールガーキンも悲観的なこと言ってロシア軍に逮捕されそうなんだろ
実際戦争行ってる奴はみんな同じこと言うな そもそもこれ以上拡大してどうすんの？
統治出来ないでしょ >>5
大スポ並に信用ないわ
プリゴジンの動画貼って欲しい 最前線のワグネルのトップがウクが本気だしたら負ける
て言い出してるんだから露の現状は相当やばいんだろな ブリゴジンによるとウクラは40万のNATO装備揃えた兵隊を用意してて
大反抗することになってるからなｗ
このいつもの三味線に縋ってるのは産経ぐらいだわ
何度目だよｗ もう犯罪者からの徴兵は限界に達しただろうし
ワグネルにとっては戦争が長引いても得しないからね 産 経 ソ ー ス で 草 ｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗｗ ロシア軍はウクライナ軍と親戚が多いから初めからやる気ない ワグネル軍隊だけは多国籍だからヤバイ ウクライナ軍は給料５千円くらいで
ウクライナは自然消滅 >>26
要約すると
「我々の攻撃により、東部州と南部州、クリミアに至る回廊は打通した
もう充分に占領地も拡げてウクライナ軍を粉砕した、今後下手に追撃を重ねて
（ロシア側の）損害を増やすよりは現在のラインで停戦をして
占領地の慰撫に専念した方が良い、ドネツク州の完全占領には膨大な時間と
人員の損失がかかってしまい、現実的ではない。
プーチンは『ウクライナはロシアの一部』と言っているがそれは昔の話で
現在のウクライナは独立した国家だ」
と言う事らしい >>43
ヘルソン大反攻の時も東部戦線に120000~200000,ロシア西部ヘルソン州に~100000
戦車も数百両,他に歩兵戦闘車や大砲を大量に,戦闘機も少し供与したけど
結局大半を損耗しちゃったもんな 真実を言ってしまいプーチンに暗殺されそうw
その後こいつの予想通りウクライナとNATOは勢いが増して
侵略された領土を奪還しそう 露助の死者はウクライナ公式発表よりもさらに多い可能性もあると思ってる
ろくにライフルも持たないまま地雷の埋まった平原を歩いてる攻めてるようではね… はいプーチンマンセー教徒さんお疲れ様ー。
次は北朝鮮の将軍様マンセーしとけよ。
そっちのがまだ頭はマシ A fair fight only: no cheating
April 14, 2023
The Wagner PMC continues to grind the Ukrainian army in Bakhmut. Zelensky sends more and more units into this meat grinder, into the destructive funnel that sucks in the best units of the AFU and mercenaries. Why has Zelensky been so stubborn on Bakhmut? Why since December 20, when I challenged him comically from the artillery guns of the Wagner PMC, has Zelenski fallen for it like a boy and stuck to Bakhmut? And our intimate dialogue with him has been going on for four months now. We are both enjoying ourselves, but the orgasm never came.
What is the secret of the Bakhmut meat grinder?
Bakhmut's strategic role is not that great. Bakhmut is followed by Seversk, Sloviansk, Kramatorsk, Konstantinovka, Druzhkovka and Chasov Yar: settlements that are part of the so-called "Donbass ring" and form a fortified area. On the one hand, Bakhmut is part of this fortification; on the other hand, the capture of Bakhmut itself will not ensure a quick victory over Ukraine, a road to the Dnieper or even the capture of Donbass.
Ukraine's top leadership argues endlessly about the need to hold Bakhmut. They are trying to rock this town as a sacred symbol. They rock the sacredness in the morning, decide in the evening to retreat, and the next morning throw in thousands of soldiers again, and so on ad infinitum. The Ukrainian army has amassed enough forces. About 200 thousand already sufficiently trained fighters, who have undergone two to three months of training and harmonization, are ready to carry out combat tasks. The number of weapons and ammunition is sufficient for these 200 thousand to go on the offensive in different directions.
The troops, ready for the counter-offensive, are in the areas of concentration - they have everything they need. In those tank wedges, which they try to hammer into the defense of PMC Wagner by dozens every day, the AFU loses from 30 to 50 pieces of equipment every day, and they have no problems with it. And as for people, they have, as they say at the front, no limit.
But the attack announced first for December 20, then for January 1, then for the end of January, then for February 24, then for April 3-5 and now for April 15 is postponed each time. The Ukrainian army is in concentration areas, hoofing and preparing to move forward. But, as they say, "a donkey that has stood in the shade will not work in the sun". If the AFU does not go on the offensive soon, it will begin to gradually lose its combat potential. The war will come to a standstill, and those territories that are now under the control of the Russian Federation may remain at the disposal of the Russian Federation for years to come. Political aspects of Bakhmut
Politically Bakhmut is of little interest to the Kiev regime, it is more of a destabilising factor than a factor in holding its ground. Every outcry on Bakhmut, every captured soldier, every hundred killed hits Zelensky and the AFU leadership much harder than the pluses they get from holding the remnants of this town.
That said, the prolonged battle for Bakhmut is extremely beneficial to Russian forces, as they have already snatched a large chunk of Ukrainian territory in 2022. If the special operation remains within these borders, give or take a couple of tens of kilometres, it will solve many of the problems of the SSR. Bakhmut gives the Russian army an opportunity to accumulate forces, occupy advantageous defensive lines, deal with internal problems, prepare the mobilized and meet any number of counteroffensive insurgents in full armor.
Bakhmut is extremely advantageous for us, we grind down the Ukrainian army there and hold back their manoeuvres.
Any mid-level commander knows that if you have created tension for the enemy in some place and have enough reserves, you need to make a manoeuvre and strike close by - where the enemy is not ready and where it will break. The most logical move by the AFU would be to bounce back from Bakhmut and make sharp flank strikes to try to break through our defences. However, every day from Chasov Yar columns of equipment come and go, and every day, before reaching the front line, AFU fighters die by the hundreds, dotting the "road of death" and the surrounding fields with thousands of dead bodies and hundreds of burnt-out armoured vehicles, going to the slaughter. プリコジンのロシアソース見るとウクライナ軍かかってこいで締めてるんだけど切り抜き酷すぎだろｗ A dramatic pause
As is well known, the military operation on the Ukrainian side is tactically run by the Ukrainian military and strategically by the so-called Western coalition led by Britain and the US. At the beginning of April there was a leak of documents from the Pentagon. The documents themselves pose no strategic danger.
They were a collection of everything from scratch - most of it from open sources.
But the leak was widely publicized, and immediately after it the active statements
of the sources close to Pentagon about the necessity to put the brakes
on the offensive announced for April 15 till the summer period began.
Why has the army ready for an offensive been again delayed at its borders
and why has the "last Nanai warning" of 15 April, the final deadline for the Ukrainian offensive,
been pushed back to summer again?
After all, it would have been far more painful for Russia to launch a Ukrainian offensive
with imminent reputational losses before 9 May, in case of any minimal success of
a few meters in their nominal direction.
And why is the Ukrainian army "giving a head start" again?
It is the Western coalition that takes "dramatic pauses",
it is this group that postpones the AFU offensive every time.
Perhaps 21-year-old Jack Teixeira leaked the documents foolishly,
perhaps he was used "underhandedly", but if that leak hadn't happened,
it would surely have been invented the next day.
I emphasize that the documents themselves are not strategic and
do not pose any threat to the AFU once they are published.
And hence cannot add to the risks of the AFU in any way in the event of an attack on them. >>31
多少肯定的に書いてるけどどっちにしろバフムト取って終わりだとこんなに犠牲出した意味がわからんよ
バフムトは中継点でその先に攻め込むために血で血を洗う戦いをやってると言ってたのに
中継点だけ取って終わりにしようってのはもう戦争続けられないと言ってるようなものでは There are a huge number of conspiracy theories about the events of
the 1990s and then 2014 - the Maidan in Ukraine and the transition of
Crimea to Russian control.
There are a huge number of different prophecies telling the meaning
of these events. One thing is absolutely clear - the US and the Anglo-Saxon group
have been hatching a plan to destroy the USSR as their main geopolitical rival for
a long time. In the late 80's and early 90's they managed to put a huge number
of agents of influence on the ruling top of the USSR,
to give new meanings that changed the ideology of this ruling top,
to get the population hooked on the consumerist needle and collapse of the USSR.
The collapse of the USSR was the most painful, the most severe collapse
of an empire in hundreds of years, but it did not lead to the complete destruction
of Russia and the division of it into smaller principalities.
In the bowels of the American secret services a plan has long been hatched
to carry out the next step towards the complete collapse of Russia,
which is fully in line with today's US doctrine.
The fragmentation of African states, the collapse of the former Warsaw Pact countries.
The smaller the country, the easier it is to govern,
the more financially dependent it is, the more docile it is. The basis of modern US policy is financial neocolonialism.
This is when even the most subsoil-rich countries do not process
the wealth of their subsoil, but are fully incorporated into the production
and financial flows offered by "Western partners" - becoming American satellites,
subcontractors and puppets. Therefore, the final task of the US
in the Ukrainian confrontation is to launch powerful centrifugal impulses in Russia,
weaken power and national consciousness in the society and force it to turn around
to face the West - just as it did in the early 1990s. Of course,
in order to control the political situation in the country,
it is paramount to gain control over the financial instruments within the system,
over production capacity and subsoil resources.
Now that the special operation has begun and the Russian Federation
has failed to achieve the results the public expected,
the U.S. has an opportunity to return to its original plan.
The original plan, to reiterate, was to break up the Soviet Union,
then walk the perimeter of the country and turn its former allies away from Russia.
In 30 years with many of the former republics this almost succeeded.
We lost first full control and then good neighbourly relations. "Deep State".
Russia's collapse cannot happen militarily. The forests, marshes,
vast territories, and climatic specifics reliably protect the country's territory,
making it an enormous fortification. Always in history, the enemy
who reached Moscow eventually fled in disgrace,
turning the "road of victory" into the "road of death" on the way back.
Why are the Anglo-Saxons holding back Zelensky by staging internal conflicts
and stalling the offensive? Precisely in order to siphon off the main prize -
the break-up of Russia into a multitude of principalities.
The US doesn't need a quick war.
They need a war that will lead to the re-definition of the "deep state" and its victory.
"The deep state" is a community of near-state elites that operate independently
of the political leadership of the state and have close ties and an agenda of their own.
These elites work for different masters: some for the existing government,
some for those who have long been on the run, but, thanks to their connections,
they remain in their seats after the elder has fled.
A typical example of a "deep state" is the oppletions of Khodorkovsky,
Dvorkovich and so on. Dvorkovich, whom I have mentioned many times,
who fled abroad, left behind a whole tail of scum that were under him
and above him, and who are elements of this "deep state".
"The deep state" endlessly leaks information and is ready to side with
any ally or enemy for its own interests. The deep state is easy to approach
because it is a sponge within the country that is red on one side,
black on the other, white on the third and green on the fourth.
And on each side, having a link to a part of the deep state,
you can get to the centre of it. Russia's deep state today is in serious crisis. Many of those who only yesterday supported the special operation
are now in doubts or categorically against what is happening.
Representatives of the deep state want urgently to return to their ordinary lives,
their old habits and comfort. "The deep state is cunning and disingenuous,
Joseph Prigozhin's talk is a prime example of this.
They are willing to mimic anyone. It is our inner, affectionate, cunning,
bloodthirsty chameleon.
In meetings they remain silent, expressing their doubts.
And in bureaucratic decision-making, they inhibit any action aimed at winning this war.
Since bureaucracy in Russia today is at an exorbitant level,
within the framework of "legal bureaucracy" it is possible to destroy any decisions
of the top leadership aimed at victory.
These are the internal enemies. In Alexander Dmitrievich Beglov's theory,
this is called the "bureaucratic sieve" - a sieve you can get into but cannot get out of. ポーランドリトアニア連合の支配地域だった西と350年間ロシア文化が栄えた東はアイデンティティ的に水と油だから現実的に分離したほうがいい
プーチンはそう言ってる
現実的なラインで分割しなければ同じ問題が延々と続いて軍事緊張が続く
各国の軍産複合体的にはおいしい話なのかもしれないが Supergame
For the authorities and for society as a whole, it is now necessary
to put some kind of thick end to the SWO. The ideal is to declare the end of USO,
to let everyone know that Russia has achieved the results it planned,
and in a sense we have indeed achieved them.
We have ground up a huge number of AFU fighters and can report
to ourselves that the USO tasks have been completed.
Theoretically Russia has already got that fat point by destroying a large part
of Ukraine's active male population, by intimidating another part of
it that has fled to Europe.
Russia has cut off the Sea of Azov and a large chunk of the Black Sea,
seized a fat chunk of Ukrainian territory and created a land corridor to Crimea.
Now there is only one thing left to do: to entrench itself firmly in the territories it already has.
But there is a catch - if Ukraine used to be part of former Russia,
it is now a completely nationally oriented state.
Before February 24, 2022 the European Union was greedy to give Ukraine tens
of millions of dollars, but now they are taking tens of billions for the war.
Certainly, some of these funds are pleasing the pockets of Ukraine's ruling elite,
who benefit from the conflict. Many of those who yesterday were forgotten
have now been given a new chance for self-fulfilment and enrichment. Ukraine needs victory, the US needs a process
Even though the Ukrainian leadership is enriching itself, the political leadership
needs a victory due to heavy casualties at the front and general fatigue from the war.
For Russia, there is always the risk that the situation on the front
could deteriorate once a counter-offensive is launched.
The preservation of existing borders by 24 February 2023 is the kind of exchange
the US can offer the Russian leadership today, as a negotiating position.
This is what a "dramatic pause" is for. If the authorities refuse,
the AFU will go on the offensive. In this situation, there could be various options for
the development of events.
One of them is that the AFU will encounter the Russian defense,
suffer serious losses, after which a huge counter-offensive will be launched by
the Russian troops to the borders of the DPR, or to the Dnieper, or even to Poland.
But given today's dynamics and issues, such a counteroffensive is, to put it mildly,
not very likely. The second option is that the Ukrainian army will launch
a counteroffensive and somewhere manage to break through the defenses.
In this case, the army, which for years considered itself to be one of the best armies
in the world, could first start to decadent, and then the situation would degrade,
as it did after the defeatist wars of the early twentieth century
- the Finnish and Japanese wars - and the tragic events of 1917. This could lead to a global change in Russian society.
The people are already looking for someone to blame for the fact that
we are not the strongest army in the world, and in this situation they will be looking for the "extreme".
And those 'guilty' will undoubtedly be the representatives of the 'deep state'.
That is, those people who at the moment are as far away as possible from
the theatre of military operations, trying not to lose their capital, to live a familiar life,
and this is absolutely unacceptable to a people tired of war and losing the taste of victory.
The patriots' longing for justice may reflect badly on the deep state, mired in luxury and bureaucracy.
In this case, the supreme power of Russia is not threatened because it is a symbol
of national unity and resistance against the West, and this is the basis
of today's existence and the main explanation of any problems for patriotic forces inside Russia.
The "deep state" will push the supreme power to make serious concessions.
And, in the existing tradition of the "deep state", at any change they will try to improve
their position by any means, including betrayal of Russia's interests.
Their task is not the country and the people, their task is their own position in society,
their own comfort and their own capital. Get to the bottom
If you are falling down, if the weight of your problems does not make you better,
but drags you to the bottom, there is an expression: "hit bottom, then push off
and resurface up again". This is what Americans fear.
They are afraid that excessive pressure on Russia and increasing domestic problems could pull it to the bottom.
And if Russia reaches the bottom, and shakes off the weight of the "deep state",
then it will float up like a huge sea monster, demolishing everything in its path,
including the U.S. plans.
There are numerous examples of this in world history.
China in the middle of the 20th century, being one of the poorest countries
in the world, under partial occupation, Germany after the First World War,
Japan after the Second World War, Turkey after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.
All of them resurfaced by pushing back from the bottom.
Radical national sentiments will resurface as after any military defeat,
the Russian military industry will start working with a tenfold effort.
Economic efficiency will supplant sluggish, inefficient state capital.
The state will be rid of bureaucracy, processes will become transparent,
and Russia will step by step become a Bristling Military Monster that
the international community will have to more than reckon with,
bending so that at every deflection we see their buttocks extended.
If we do not prove that we are militarily strong, no one will reckon with us,
and they will twist us as they please. It is extremely disadvantageous to America
for Russia to hit bottom and resurface. They want a sluggish process
in which they negotiate with the elites, with the "deep state",
and then convince the top political leadership of the country to make
new concessions step by step. If there are soft arrangements, then, according to the American principle
of gradual humiliation, first the Friedmans and Chubais will be returned to Russia,
then the Khodorkovsky and Dvorkovich.
Then the elites will gradually be liberalised and the "deep state" will take them
in out of a sense of self-preservation, transforming itself from black or red to blue or pink.
Of course, this development is disadvantageous to Ukraine and Volodymyr Zelensky,
they need to resist and fight back. But if these processes happen fast enough,
within a year or two, a liberalized, Americanized, facing the West, "deep state"
will force the Russian authorities to make concessions and under various pretexts
return to Ukraine those territories that are now under our control,
which the West considers occupied.
These processes with the question "Why did we go to war then?"
will certainly launch the mechanism of centrifugal forces in the regions.
And the Americans will get their way. In that situation the main US plan with the,
at first glance, nice-looking "soft peace agreement" will be implemented.
Russia cannot accept any kind of agreement, only a fair fight. If we come out
of this fight battered, there is nothing wrong with it.
Russia's fortifications do not allow us to penetrate into its depths.
And the Russian people have never been and will never be broken.
Therefore - Only a Fair Fight! And the sooner it begins, the better.
To sum up. The Ukrainians are ready to attack. We are ready to repel the blow.
The best scenario for Russia to heal itself and become the Strongest State
is an attack by the AFU, in which no handouts or negotiations will be possible.
And either the AFU will be defeated in a fair fight, or Russia will lick its wounds,
build up its muscles and tear its rivals apart again in a fair fight.
That is why I believe that the option of bargaining is impossible for the future of Russia. 超約
お互い準備出来てんだからグチグチ言い訳してないでさっさと攻めてこい
勝とうが負けようが完全決着まで何度でもやったるわ
それがDSと戦うロシアとロシア国民の宿命だ舐めんなよゼレ公ｗ 時事通信はまともに報じてる
https://sp.m.jiji.com/amp/article/show/2928248
ロシアの民間軍事会社「ワグネル」創設者プリゴジン氏は１４日、ロシアがウクライナ侵攻で東・南部一帯を占領していることを踏まえ「作戦の終了を発表し、ロシアが計画した結果を達成したと周知することが、理想的な選択肢」と主張した。一方で「（敵との）合意は不可能。戦うのみだ」と述べ、ウクライナ軍の反転攻勢に備えるよう訴えた。 バフムトは岩塩と石膏があるみたいだけどそんな重要なのか あんまりどかどか占領地を広めずに陣地固めを優先しようや
って言ってるだけだからなコレ >>76
つまりもうこれ以上占領地広げると
しんじゃいます！
助けて！
ってこったな 戦争は全部お金のために行われています (´・ω・｀) >>52
ロシア正規軍,義勇兵が死者19000 NATO正規軍,出向兵が死者34000 植民地軍が死者260000~540000 やった！取った！で終わらないからな
その後維持が始まるわけで
統治能力ねーくせにいつまでやるんだ 最大限有利な状態に持ち込んで停戦とはそりゃうまくはいかんだろう… なんかこのストーリー既視感があるな
めちゃめちゃ勝ちまくってる将軍が逆に「もう限界です」と陳情するが聞き入れられず
最後にめちゃくちゃに負けるという
何だったかな 一月以上前からロシア軍は前線の50~100km後方に巨大な要塞線を築いているという報道があったけど、これの前フリだったのかな？
これ以上は基本は進軍しないけど、手に入れたものは絶対死守するぞ！という
もし本当なら、朝鮮戦争後半戦みたいな長くてグダグダした膠着線になりそう ■ このスレッドは過去ログ倉庫に格納されています
